[T2] type2 Digest, Vol 25, Issue 1

[Patrick Ludvig]

Subject: [T2] why won't it start.

Bob - I just remembered something. When I was doing my timing, I noticed
that when everything was lined up like you said, dist pointing to # 1, it
wouldn't turn over. When I walked the wires around the dist, it would start
immediately with #2 being first in the firing order. That's actually the
way I kept it. It still doesn't make sense to me, but it runs fine.

Also, if you have a timing light the engine will show you how off the
timing is on # 1. With everything lined up, mine was WAY off, like 15
degrees or something equally ridiculous. Along with what I said above, the
engine wanted to be timed with the timing light on #2. I had everything
(valves, timing mark, distributor, firing order) perfect on #1, everything
lined up, and it was doing the same thing yours was. It cranks away,
there's sparks everywhere, but it won't kick over. I moved the dist wires
around counterclockwise 90 degrees, put the timing light on # 2, and turned
the distributor small amounts until it started. If you don't have a helper,
try all that anyway and just move the dist like a millimeter at a time, try
to start, move it more, try to start, etc. If you have a helper, they crank
and you move the dist.

Sorry if you've tried all of this or if it's been covered. I wanted to make
sure you were aware of the weird timing on these things.

-Pat

On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 5:29 PM, Patrick Ludvig <patrickludvig at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Subject: [T2] why won't it start.
>
> Regarding the 78 not starting. Mine was an EXTREMELY hard starter, or no
> start at all when the Temp 2 sensor by the # 3 cylinder was bad. It would
> crank forever but wouldn't kick over. Once replaced, it would start, but
> then that lead me to other small issues, like the brake booster to decel
> valve or the aux air valve elbow would be cracked or there'd be a gap that
> you couldn't see. It seems like you've done everything you can with the
> distributor. (did you ever say if this was a 009, SVDA, Pertronix, etc?)
> What I'm saying is that even bad vacuum is still vacuum and she should try
> to kick over with what you have. I feel like there's something else going
> on.
>
> Did it run before? I didn't see you post anything about the temp 2 sensor.
> I've had this problem now on both of my 78s. Let us know!
>
> On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 3:00 PM, <type2-request at type2.com> wrote:
>
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>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>    1. why won't it start. (accessys at smart.net)
>>    2. Re: why won't it start. (Mike Converse)
>>    3. Fridge relay - ground starter Solenoid and ignition switch ,
>>       how do they work together ? (Christophe Guilbert)
>>    4. Re: why won't it start. (Raceing Cajun)
>>    5. Re: why won't it start. (Raceing Cajun)
>>    6. Re: why won't it start. (accessys at smart.net)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2015 12:19:13 -0400 (EDT)
>> From: accessys at smart.net
>> To: type2 at type2.com
>> Subject: [T2] why won't it start.
>> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.60.1506031215310.16745 at cygnus.smart.net>
>> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>>
>>
>> I have been pouring over wiring diagrams til my eyeballs have fallen out.
>>
>> . rechecked the valves.
>> . rechecked timing
>> . getting compression
>> . getting spark
>> . getting fuel.
>>
>> cranks hard.
>> is an engine that ran well before being rebuilt
>>
>> so why won't the &(@&$ thing start.
>>
>> gotta be something stupid I'm missing but right now if someone walked up
>> and offered to push it in the harbor for me I might think about it......
>>
>>
>> ideas
>> dumb or otherwise?
>>
>> thanks
>> Bob
>> oh a 78 pretty much stock with auto tranny
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2015 09:33:22 -0700
>> From: Mike Converse <mikec at projectdesign.com>
>> To: accessys at smart.net
>> Cc: type2 at type2.com
>> Subject: Re: [T2] why won't it start.
>> Message-ID: <36066519-8BBF-4759-B91A-8550F1F6673B at projectdesign.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>
>> Bob,
>>
>> Few things come to mind:
>>
>>         Bad coil, rotor, cap, condenser, points, or wires - I know you
>> are getting spark, but is it strong enough? verify/test all components of
>> ignition system
>>         Temp Sensor II is bad or shorted
>>         too much air - remove, and inspect all hoses and connections.
>> make absolutely sure you have a good seal between runners and cylinder
>> heads.
>>         bad cold start valve - may be flooding it, disconnect and try
>> after 20 mins
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Jun 3, 2015, at 9:19 AM, accessys at smart.net wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > I have been pouring over wiring diagrams til my eyeballs have fallen
>> out.
>> >
>> > . rechecked the valves.
>> > . rechecked timing
>> > . getting compression
>> > . getting spark
>> > . getting fuel.
>> >
>> > cranks hard.
>> > is an engine that ran well before being rebuilt
>> >
>> > so why won't the &(@&$ thing start.
>> >
>> > gotta be something stupid I'm missing but right now if someone walked
>> up and offered to push it in the harbor for me I might think about it......
>> >
>> >
>> > ideas
>> > dumb or otherwise?
>> >
>> > thanks
>> > Bob
>> > oh a 78 pretty much stock with auto tranny
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > type2 mailing list
>> > type2 at type2.com
>> > https://www.type2.com/lists/type2/listinfo
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2015 09:56:29 -0700
>> From: Christophe Guilbert <cguilbert at picasso.ucsf.edu>
>> To: Type 2 List <type2 at type2.com>
>> Subject: [T2] Fridge relay - ground starter Solenoid and ignition
>>         switch , how do they work together ?
>> Message-ID: <556F31BD.1010501 at picasso.ucsf.edu>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>>
>> Hi guy ,
>>
>> I am adding a second battery and want to be sure that I understand
>> correctly how works the fridge relay in the AUX battery compartment
>> behind the driver seat. I need to fully understand this before adding my
>> AUX batter (more about that later)
>>
>> Please correct me if I am wrong but the fridge seems to be "double"
>> controlled by terminal 85 and 86,
>> 85 is energized by the ignition switch wire (blue) and 86 is energized
>> by the ground starter solenoid wire (red/black)
>>
>> How 87 and 85 trigger terminal works in tandem exactly ?
>>
>> Here is my assumption:
>>
>> 85 and 86 seems to suggest that the relay is closed (selecting fridge
>> over the LED panel) by a) after putting the key in , b) after engine
>> started.  86 ( ground starter solenoid ) seem to do the trick by
>> triggering the relay only AFTER the cranking phase (when the starter
>> kick in) is completed so there's no damaging voltage peak to the fridge.
>> Is that correct ?
>>
>> So I guess 85 is energized +12V as soon as you put the key in and stays
>> on while driving.
>> 86 is more obscure to me , does it goes grounded AFTER the cranking
>> phase (starter running) so 85 and 86 allowing the relay to close. If
>> that so how is 86 state before the cranking phase , not grounded or +12V
>> ? if 86 is not grounded or +12V, than the relay stays open. After the
>> cranking phase , 86 become grounded, 85 being already +12V, they close
>> the relay and select the fridge.
>> Does it really work like that ?
>>
>> Also my radio had this black/yellow strip wire which is energized and
>> start the radio when I turn the key one crank .
>> What the difference between that wire and the 85 ignition switch wire
>> (blue)
>>
>> I am rebuilding my harness and all wires are out, this is very scary
>> since I am so close from my trip to Alaska with the kids , I can't take
>> a voltmeter and so any test to check how it works, so I really need the
>> info.
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2015 11:55:35 -0500
>> From: "Raceing Cajun" <raceingcajun at communicomm.com>
>> To: <accessys at smart.net>
>> Cc: TYPE 2 LIST <type2 at type2.com>
>> Subject: Re: [T2] why won't it start.
>> Message-ID: <D07DCB716442410D8A98C6EF7EBFB4DA at BayouBillards1>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>>         reply-type=response
>>
>> Hello Bob,
>>
>>     Does the engine make any noise's when turn it over? Such as does it,
>> backfire, pop, or act like it is hitting back against the starter?  It
>> sounds like you have touched all the big points on the check list, GAS,
>> FIRE, AIR, so I agree its something off the wall. Do you have a helper?
>> Have
>> someone turn it over, and with the distributor clamp loose, while its
>> cranking, rotate the distributor by hand, and see if it, pops or hits back
>> against the starter. You may have the cam timing off or distributor out of
>> time, etc.. Check these things and get back to me, and we'll go through
>> the
>> cam timing check, its simple with no major tear down required.
>>
>> Skipper
>>
>>
>> >Subject: [T2] why won't it start.
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2015 12:29:56 -0500
>> From: "Raceing Cajun" <raceingcajun at communicomm.com>
>> To: <accessys at smart.net>
>> Cc: TYPE 2 LIST <type2 at type2.com>
>> Subject: Re: [T2] why won't it start.
>> Message-ID: <FABCAE0C00234E5DBB3970D93CE6BCC1 at BayouBillards1>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8";
>>         reply-type=response
>>
>> Hi Bob,
>>
>> To check the cam timing; 1) Pull the valve covers 2) Remove the
>> distributor
>> cap 3) Rotate the engine by hand 4) Watch the pulley for the TDC mark,
>> bring
>> it to TDC, with valve gap on intake and exhaust for #1 cylinder (TDC mark
>> aligns with case split) 5) When the pulley is at TDC, the distributor
>> rotor
>> should point at the ?Notch? on the lip at the top of the distributor
>> housing, the #3 cylinder intake and exhaust valves should be at ?overlap?
>> (in other words, the rocker arms should pass each other one closing, one
>> opening). This checks the basic timing set up of the engine, Crankshaft in
>> relation to the cam, the ignition (dis) in relation to the cam.
>> When your sure the distributor is in time, the crank is at TDC, the #3
>> valves at overlap, the rotor pointing at the distributor notch. If you
>> have
>> all that, then check the wiring order on the cap. Place #1 wire in the cap
>> pole aligning with the notch, the in order of rotation, #4, #3, #2, and
>> just
>> to touch the silly side, make sure each wire goes to the proper plug! When
>> you get all these ducks in a row, it should at least fire!
>>
>> Skipper
>>
>> >Subject: [T2] why won't it start.
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 6
>> Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2015 13:49:54 -0400 (EDT)
>> From: accessys at smart.net
>> To: Raceing Cajun <raceingcajun at communicomm.com>
>> Cc: TYPE 2 LIST <type2 at type2.com>
>> Subject: Re: [T2] why won't it start.
>> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.60.1506031343450.11919 at cygnus.smart.net>
>> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>>
>>
>> have a rear starter switch so have tried the slowly turning dist while
>> cranking. and all and it is not even trying to fire.  I used a little
>> ether (I hate that stuff) and it did backfire and once tried to start. but
>> not with the gas.??
>>
>> did check dist with timing mark and #1 cyl and all are lined up..
>>
>> this is "new" rebuilt engine and I checked the valves too. one thing seems
>> like the hyd lifters are a bit soft. but should at least allow it to fire.
>> and they are at two turns, I usually do 1 and a half.
>>
>> can someone take a photo of the wires on the coil.  I have two black wires
>> coming from harness inside a single sheath, one I know goes pos side of
>> coil and it is there but the other has me ???  I have an empty spade on
>> Neg side of coil and I seem to recall all lugs had wires on them. but
>> putting this wire on  there has no effect.....?
>>
>> thanks
>> Bob
>>
>> On Wed, 3 Jun 2015, Raceing Cajun wrote:
>>
>> > Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2015 11:55:35 -0500
>> > From: Raceing Cajun <raceingcajun at communicomm.com>
>> > To: accessys at smart.net
>> > Cc: TYPE 2 LIST <type2 at type2.com>
>> > Subject: Re: [T2] why won't it start.
>> >
>> > Hello Bob,
>> >
>> >   Does the engine make any noise's when turn it over? Such as does it,
>> > backfire, pop, or act like it is hitting back against the starter?  It
>> sounds
>> > like you have touched all the big points on the check list, GAS, FIRE,
>> AIR,
>> > so I agree its something off the wall. Do you have a helper? Have
>> someone
>> > turn it over, and with the distributor clamp loose, while its cranking,
>> > rotate the distributor by hand, and see if it, pops or hits back
>> against the
>> > starter. You may have the cam timing off or distributor out of time,
>> etc..
>> > Check these things and get back to me, and we'll go through the cam
>> timing
>> > check, its simple with no major tear down required.
>> >
>> > Skipper
>> >
>> >
>> >> Subject: [T2] why won't it start.
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Subject: Digest Footer
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> type2 mailing list
>> type2 at type2.com
>> https://www.type2.com/lists/type2/listinfo
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> End of type2 Digest, Vol 25, Issue 1
>> ************************************
>>
>
>